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Crying out to "rationality"
Monday. 5.26.08 2:35 pm
Come on, people. A magician can't pull himself out of the hat. Especially if the space and time that the hat exists in...doesn't exist.

I mean, the odds of a universe, a solar system, and a planet all being able to support life? Vanishingly small. However, there's still that unimaginably small chance of it happening.

The odds of the fabric of reality just appearing? (And it must have, at some point.) Null. Zero. Not REALLY SMALL, but plain old 0. Not without "supernatural intervention".

Religion doesn't have any rhyme, reason, or scientific support? Please.

1) Yeah, it does. (I've noticed that Real Player works better than Media Player)

2) What science supports Atheism, and nothing but? Other than evolution theory, I haven't heard of anything like that. And since when did evolution even rule out the supernatural? You don't have a leg to stand on.

As for, and I quote, "their unsophisticated mind"s, (kay2zed) wow. You, sir, are sadly mistaken, and more than a bit haughty. If I may go so far. Don't get me wrong; I respect your intellect, and from what I've read, your passion for deep thought and writing. But, frankly, if someone is wrong, it doesn't matter how well they answer.

Bah. You guys boggle my mind.

UPDATE:

In response to Unicornasaurus: The thing about evolution was exactly my point. It doesn't support any particular religious view, but some people seem to think it's an atheistic thing.

When I hear a plausible theory for the beginning of the universe that leaves no room for any God, but especially not the Christian God, then I will shut up. Until then, let it be clear that there are no other real alternatives for Big Bang Theory, yet. I doubt we're going to get one. But I'll have to accept it if one emerges.
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In response to Ranor: I completely agree with you. Science is (or, would be,) the language of God. Go Science!

But when science says the impossible happened, like the Big Bang, then you begin to wonder. The science isn't wrong, but there's an element that can not be explained in a purely scientific view. That must be where God steps in.

Scientific experiments will never be able to answer the questions we ask like "Why are we here" or "where does it come from". But can't science at least say "it" did, in fact, come from somewhere?
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I'm happy that we can get along here.

Let me make myself more clear. This post is not meant to make you reconsider what you believe. I'm not even trying. I want you to look at WHY you believe it. There's no real, logical reason to think that there ISN'T a higher being. I mean, the thing I keep seeing is that religious people are ignorant, or that we have no basis for our faith. I see the term "blind faith" a lot. This post is mostly my response to the entry by Kay2zed linked above.

The way I see it, lots of people think that being an atheist is more logical because one only believes in what one can see and verify. A part of your paradigm is that if you can't prove it, then it doesn't exist. My point is that, maybe this approach requires at least as much "blind faith" as another view, especially when the evidence starts pointing in the other direction?
12 Comments.


I think the point is that there's not a lot of scientific FACT for creationism. I'm sure there's plenty of scientific SUPPORT, just as there is with evolution.

And, by the way, just because nothing explains something occurring yet doesn't mean that religion does.

Furthermore, atheism isn't supported by theory of evolution. That theory doesn't support anything except organisms evolving from lesser forms of themselves. >.>
» Unicornasaurus on 2008-05-26 07:22:32

The practice of science revolves around what is testable and observable. Since the existence of a higher power is neither conclusively testable nor observable (a sentiment which I suppose would be debatable according to what constitutes "proof"), the practice of science, in its limited understanding of how the universe works, cannot provide cut-and-dried answers to the metaphysical questions humans are so fond of asking. Does this mean religion is wrong and that faith in something larger than our collective existences is "unsophisticated"? No. But it doesn't mean that what we believe in when we choose to have faith is right, either. We scientists just can't tell.

What I wonder is how did subscribing to science and belief in religion come to be opposites? To me, they're apples and oranges, and as far as I'm concerned, if you're so inclined, go ahead and eat of both fruits! Why does it HAVE to be one or the other? Why do they have to be mutually exclusive?

» ranor on 2008-05-26 07:24:49

Oh, and here I was thinking we didn't have to talk about this anymore.

Bleh.

I could argue with you, but I'm kind of tired and I'd rather let the whole discussion die.
» randomjunk on 2008-05-26 09:43:27

R:C
It can't say either way that "it" came from somewhere or from nowhere. The only reason that science can't answer that question is because there is NO possible way to test whether or not all of reality came as the result of something. If, for example, reality did in fact come as a result of another being creating it, how is there any way to observe and test that? Likewise, if reality came into being completely randomly, without rhyme NOR reason, how is there any way to observe and test THAT? Since science is based on testability of hypotheses, if something is by its very nature untestable, then science cannot be used to answer it.

When you say, "But can't it at least say "it" did, in fact, come from somewhere?", you're already assuming that the universe came into being as a result of something else, which is direct violation of the original question, which concerns whether science can be used to tell if the universe was somehow created or if it just simply came into being completely by chance.

In other words, it's completely unfair acknowledge that science cannot answer the question, "Where does it come from?", while at the same time forcing it to acknowledge that it MUST come from somewhere as opposed to nowhere at all.

Now, in response to your addenda:

I completely agree with you. On a personal note, I think the term "agnostic" describes me more accurately than "atheistic" because I don't and can't know whether God or god or gods or whatever exist. By asserting that you believe that one or more of these beings do NOT exist, that is JUST AS MUCH A LEAP OF "FAITH" (whether "blind" [which I guess means completely sans raison] or not) than by asserting that you do. Though, I will say: when you say that "the evidence starts pointing in the other direction", I think that's just as much a result of your own personal belief system than a given universal fact. An atheist may have just as easy a time showing evidence that points in their own direction.

Why am I still writing this? I've got studying to do.
» ranor on 2008-05-26 10:13:55

i dont even remeber my xanga :[


tell AJ he is lame because alls he has in myspace
» Ruby-in-slippers on 2008-05-26 10:35:26

fail??? fail?? what is that supposed to mean...... u are not allowed to leave me one word comments its not fair >:O
» Ruby-in-slippers on 2008-05-26 10:56:08

Alright Midday you gO! God created the universe. It is that simple. The me and you know about what proverbs chap 3 says

19The LORD by wisdom founded the earth,
By understanding He established the heavens.
20By His knowledge the deeps were broken up
And the skies drip with dew.
21My son, let them not vanish from your sight;
Keep sound wisdom and discretion,
22So they will be life to your soul
And adornment to your neck.
23Then you will walk in your way securely
And your foot will not stumble.

Fear of God is the begining of all wisdom.

Once you accept that God created everything you will be free to learn.

I believe that if God allowed man to study science for a million more years. They answered all the questions they would eventually be at the feet of God. The creator of knowlege and wisdom. He is the answer to everything. The Bible says that to God all the wisdom of man is foolishness and folly. His ways are higher than ours. Be encouraged brother Me and you are free to gain all wisdom because we fear God.

» jacyhenry on 2008-05-27 01:45:36

kendal is wrong
I have facebook and myspace. not just myspace. and I use facebook a lot more. I dont even like myspace that much.

Nice post Steve. Well said.
» (208.104.216.178) on 2008-05-27 05:14:07

Well said.
Yeah, Ranor pretty much said what I think. So that is to say, I agree with both of you. Science is a game with very specific rules, one of which is that we can't allow the answer to be supernatural. It is an important rule because science is ill-equipped to handle supernatural processes; it's like using a fork to eat soup, it simply isn't the correct tool. Some people live their entire lives within the game- nothing can exist outside of it. But the paradox is that a keystone of science is that when we reach our answers we must go back and examine our assumptions, and in this case one of our assumptions excludes the supernatural.

The very fact that the Universe seems to have begun, instead of stretching forwards and backwards into infinity, seems to be an argument for some kind of intervention. But to be satisfied with that is to lose the game!
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